Melanie Wilson (00:00) Everything feels hopeless. Maybe you've said those words yourself, or maybe you know someone who's struggling right now. A friend dealing with chronic illness, a family member facing disappointment after disappointment, or someone in your homeschool community who's wondering where God is in the middle of their pain. Welcome to the Homeschool Sanity Show. I'm your host, Dr. Melanie Wilson. Today, I'm talking with Kirby Kelly, author of the new book, The Fabric of Hope, How God Weaves Redemption into Every Season. Kirby is a speaker, podcaster, and someone who understands what it's like to hold onto hope while still enduring hardship. She's dealt with chronic migraines for over a decade. And she's walked through seasons that felt like a deep, dark winter. But here's what I love most about our conversation. Kirby doesn't just give us platitudes or easy answers. She gets real about the difference between wishful thinking and biblical hope, the kind of hope that anchors us when the waves are crashing over us. Whether you're in a season of spring right now, or you're somewhere in the middle of a long, cold winter, this conversation is going to encourage you. We're talking about what to do when God's will doesn't go our way, how to hold onto hope when our circumstances aren't changing, and why Jesus being a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief, matters for us today. Let's dive in. Melanie Wilson (01:57) Kirby, thank you so much for joining me here on the Home School Sanity Show. I am really looking forward to discussing our topic for the day. I know many people who are in a place where they need some help. But before we do that, I would love to have you tell us more about you and your family. Kirby Kelly (02:19) Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me on First Things First. So excited to be here. ⁓ My name is Kirby Kelly. For those of you all who don't know me, I am an author. I'm a speaker. I'm also a podcaster. So we were just chatting about that a second ago. ⁓ And my new book that is coming out on April 7th is called The Fabric of Hope, How God Weaves Redemption into Every Season. And I'm excited to dive into that. But about my family and everything, I live in the Dallas, Texas area with my incredible husband. His name is Richard. We've been married for five years. He was actually homeschooled for a while. So I was a public school girly, but now that we are actually transitioning into parenthood, we're, we're due with our first in April. ⁓ Melanie Wilson (02:58) Nice. Kirby Kelly (03:07) We're having more of those kinds of conversations and everything. So I'm excited to be tuning into your podcasts and navigating all the parenthood things shortly. I mean, it goes by so fast, but that's a little bit about ⁓ my family. And when I'm not on here podcasting or writing or anything, really, my heart is to just make Jesus known everywhere to everyone, whether that be online, on stages or just everyday conversations. It could be at the gym. It could be Melanie Wilson (03:11) you Kirby Kelly (03:37) grabbing in and out. Like, I just, love telling people about Jesus and ⁓ modeling the gospel in a way that is just simple and applicable for everybody. Melanie Wilson (03:47) Well, I love that. Well, congratulations. So exciting. ⁓ And yes, so we are praying for a healthy baby and a fantastic delivery. That is wonderful. OK, so ⁓ you are in a really fantastic, exciting, upbeat stage of life. But we all know people who are not there. Kirby Kelly (03:50) Thanks. ⁓ Thank you. Yay. Yes. Melanie Wilson (04:17) and they will say something like, everything feels hopeless. When people talk this way, what do you think is usually happening beneath the surface? Kirby Kelly (04:33) ⁓ That's such a good question. Because even though if people are watching or listening, I'm sure they can hear the energy in my voice, like all the excitement of just everything going on, right? Book, baby, all these cool things happening. But the reality is that if we were having this conversation, like three, four years ago, I tell people that right now I feel like I'm in my spring, that God has brought me into my spring. But that's only because I was just in a very deep, dark winter. And I think for people who feel hopeless, that is exactly what it feels like. Things feel dead, they feel cold, they feel dark. And a lot of that is because of disappointment. It's because of the things that maybe we were putting our hope in or had expectation for that didn't live up to those expectations, whether that's an expectation that we put on a person or hope that we put in a person, hope in a job, hope in a system, hope in politics. mean, the list goes on of where we can find ourselves placing hope and coming out disappointed. But I think the hardest part is when we find ourselves placing hope hope in God and his will doesn't go our way. That's a whole other level of navigating disappointment and hopelessness. And I think that we as Christians need to be honest that there are times in our life where, and believe me, I love Jesus. I trust in the Lord with all of my heart, but there have been seasons, even ones recently, where the question has been why? God, why did you do this or why didn't you do this? And I think if we are not bringing those questions to him and unfortunately doing the hard work of unraveling those things, we can be left with the temptation to run away from God, to sit in our disappointment, which ends up spiraling not just into doubt and fear and anxiety and all of those things, but hopelessness. So I think for a lot of people, that is where the hopelessness derives from. It derives from these places of either Melanie Wilson (06:35) Mm. Kirby Kelly (06:41) wishful thinking, a misplaced hope, or ending up disappointed because things didn't go the way that we did hope or pray for. Melanie Wilson (06:51) Yes, I mean, I think you just summarized it so, so well. And I bet our listeners can find themselves probably in both of those ⁓ situations that you described, both where we had hope for a situation, a person, and we had hope in God and things did not work out. Kirby Kelly (07:05) Yeah. Melanie Wilson (07:20) the way that we wanted them to. So what we do when we are disappointed, ⁓ either in someone else's circumstance or in God and how he has responded to our prayers, we can do a lot of different things to try to cope with that hopelessness that can actually make things worse, right? Kirby Kelly (07:43) Yeah. Yeah. Melanie Wilson (07:49) And I mean, I'm thinking about all the things that I've tried to do. How does biblical hope differ from the quick fixes that we tend to run to? Kirby Kelly (08:01) I love this question because I think when we use the word hope, especially just like in everyday conversations, it becomes such a frivolous word. well, I hope I get a good spot at the... You know when I'm parking my car like I hope that I'm close enough to the store So I'm not having to walk in the cold because it's freezing right here right now where I'm at in, Texas ⁓ Or you know, I hope that I win the lottery one day It's like this wishful thinking where it's completely outside of our our control There's kind of like this whimsy to it of like well, we'll throw it into the wind and see if it sticks but biblical hope is different because biblical hope is a is confident expectation and and confident conviction in who God is. And I think that is the thing that differs hope in the world or those who are outside of the faith and hope for the Christian. Because hope for the Christian should be placed in Jesus. And what I mean by that, that sounds very blanket in a way, like put your hope in Jesus. It's like, but what does that even mean? Like, what am I actually hoping in Jesus for? Where does that hope come from? Because the way that I see it in scripture, hope is described as this anchor, right? And when I think about the purpose of an anchor, it's tethered to a ship to keep it steady in the storm. That's the purpose of the anchor. And if hope is supposed to anchor us in these unknown waves that are crashing over us in any given season, we need to know what that looks like. And I detail in the book that it looks like having hope in the promises of God. the patterns of God, the personhood of God, and the presence of God. And we can even dive into what that looks like practically if you want, but that is what biblical hope is. It's having hope and confident expectation in God because he is one who fulfills his promise, is faithful in his patterns, is faithful to his personhood, and is consistent in his presence. Melanie Wilson (10:08) Mm-hmm. I love that. ⁓ I had not really thought of all of those ⁓ ways that ⁓ biblical hope is ⁓ just kind of ⁓ experienced by the Christian. I love that. So before we maybe take a deeper dive into those, which I would love to do, let's talk about the people who Kirby Kelly (10:24) Yeah, yeah. Melanie Wilson (10:37) are currently walking through seasons that don't resolve quickly. And I know people ⁓ in each of the scenarios that I will present to you right now. So chronic pain or a disability, you know, they've tried everything, everything, and it just keeps going. ⁓ A long-term parenting challenge. Maybe they have a prodigal child. ⁓ Maybe they have a child who has a learning challenge or a medical chronic ⁓ health condition that isn't improving or they are grieving. So that's not going to resolve quickly. So how can we cultivate hope when the situation itself isn't improving? Kirby Kelly (11:34) That is very real. That is very real. As someone who also has chronic health issues, I've had chronic migraines for well over a decade now. So I'm not just writing this book from a place of, I've gone through these hard things and I came out the other side. That is a lot of it. A lot of it is testimony of what I have seen God do. But the other side of this book is, I'm still in this place too. I am right there with you when it comes to Melanie Wilson (11:42) Hmm. Kirby Kelly (12:02) having to endure hardship while still holding on to hope, dealing with the tension of like being in that in-between place of hope for the future, whether that be something we experience today or when we are fully in the presence of God, when we are with him in paradise, but also presently going through literal hell. it feels like on most days. And first, I want to empathize with everyone out there personally that I get it. It can be so hard to hold onto hope when your circumstance isn't changing or if it feels prolonged or if you've been waiting and warring and weeping for what feels like decades, centuries, know, eons. But I also want to encourage you I know it's great to hear another human being say, hey, I sympathize, I empathize, I get it. But I think the thing that's even more comforting is to realize that we serve a God who did not limit himself from stepping down from the throne of heaven to also endure suffering. And as I was writing this book, honestly, I knew I wanted to write on hope, but I didn't necessarily have a direction that I... felt like was like downloaded to me of like this is the direction of the book. was just I was just writing and I felt like I was processing with the Lord and he was just showing me things as I was studying and reading and praying as I was writing this and that was a big thing was knowing that in scripture as much as he is identified as you know the most high the most high king Elohim on his throne alpha and omega he is all these things and we can have hope in that we can have hope that he is the one who creates, is the one who overcomes, he is the one who ordains, who finishes our faith, who brings us through these things, he is that. But he is also the one who identifies as a man of sorrows who is well acquainted with grief. I don't think any of us want to be well acquainted with grief, but many of us are. But so is Jesus. He's also identified as a suffering servant. And I think when we actually take a glimpse, like this has been cathartic for me. This has been healing for me personally, and I'm hoping it does the same for listeners today, is that realizing that Jesus Christ went through suffering, went through grief, lament, torture, rejection, literally took upon himself the full wrath of God and died, yet, rose three days later because he is God and he proves that yes through his death burial resurrection we can have salvation in him and deliverance when it comes to our sin and shame he also I believe reveals on the cross that there is redemption to be had in our our suffering and our sorrow like when I read revelation where all of this culminates God says that he will wipe away every tear and that is a hope that I get to hold on to today that Even if I'm not seeing resolution in the way that I'm hoping for in my circumstance, my hope is not in my circumstance, my hope is in Jesus. And that is a hard thing that we have to arrive to. And I'm not saying have to in the sense of you need to speed it up, you need to. Melanie Wilson (15:24) Mm-hmm. Thank Kirby Kelly (15:39) Just accept your fate and be like, okay, well, this is my life and I can never lament, I can never grieve, I can never mourn, I can never be honest with God about what I'm feeling. No, be honest with God, but know that your feelings aren't final. What Jesus has to say is final. And if you haven't experienced redemption in that area of your life yet, again, redemption might look different than what you expect, but if you haven't experienced God stepping in, weaving in redemption whether that be the complete healing you're praying for the prodigal returning home the The I don't know the resolution that you want. It could be completely different It could be the character development within you It could be actually developing this testimony so that you can be a beacon of hope for other people if he has not yet come in and if you have not yet invited him in because Hoping can be vulnerable and risky But if we dare to hope and dare to take that risk of inviting God in and saying, God, I'm going to dare to hope that you can write a better ending than what I've already predetermined, then I wanna encourage you, he's not done in that area yet. He can still work out something good. We have closed so many chapters based on disappointment and we don't wanna revisit it because we don't even want to know how it could get any worse. What if it could get better? Like what if God could step in Melanie Wilson (16:49) Mm-hmm. Kirby Kelly (17:04) Bring a new perspective or a new resolution or a new healing or a better thing than you could have ever imagined But you have yet to hope and invite him into that space I don't want to discourage anyone or invalidate the pain you're going through because I hate when people do that to me But what I do know is is that I have this present-day Hope through relating to the people in Scripture and seeing what God did for them Melanie Wilson (17:16) Mm. Kirby Kelly (17:32) even in continual suffering. think of Paul with the thorn in his flesh. That was a continual thing, yet there was redemption in that. Yet there was glory and grace in that place, in some odd twist of fate, in some odd twist of God stepping in and doing something good. And I think that if we can have that perspective of, well, God, maybe you can do something unconventional that is so much better than what I could conceptualize as good, I think that we can then dare to begin to hope again. Melanie Wilson (17:49) Mm-hmm. Wow, I just feel like so much of what you said there, I want to divide up into ⁓ quotes to meditate on. And I am excited about your book for that reason, because I will be able to have that in print. So your book is called The Fabric of Hope. Kirby Kelly (18:14) haha Yeah. Yes. Melanie Wilson (18:30) And it uses a beautiful metaphor of threads of hope that people can begin weaving into their lives. Can you talk more about that? What are some threads of hope? Kirby Kelly (18:44) Absolutely. Well, I think it all goes back to kind of what I mentioned earlier, having hope in who God is, his promises, his patterns, his personhood and his presence. I think those are tangible things that we can cling on to. And as we allow that to be threaded into our life, we begin to experience those fruits of the spirit that we read in Galatians, right? When we abide in Christ and truly Believe not just believe because we read it and it's head knowledge, but we are convinced in our heart that it is true that that we can experience love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness self-control all these fruits come from this place of abiding in Christ and Believing in what is true about him. So I'll even just briefly break down those things I go into deeper detail in the book, but even just to keep it brief hope in his promises. I think that's that's kind of an easy thing to conceptualize. What has God promised for his people in the Word of God? Or what has he promised to you directly? Because I believe the Holy Spirit still moves, still speaks to us, still ministers to us. So have you have you had those conversations with God where he has given you a hope in his written Word? Or Melanie Wilson (19:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kirby Kelly (20:03) by the spirit spirit and truth god is both sides to those things i think about his patterns this is something that i consistently hold on to through reading scripture but also by practicing this spiritual discipline of remembrance like actually looking back on my life and seeing where god was what god did maybe you haven't even asked god that question god where were you when this happened i remember asking him that God, where were you when my dad decided to pick up a bottle instead of me? God, where were you when my parents' marriage completely fell apart because of that and I grew up in a chaotic household where there was divorce and then that sprung my mom to have an alcoholism problem? Where were you then? You could have intervened, you could have done something. We can ask God those very real questions and I think that when we read scripture, we can see that. Melanie Wilson (20:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Kirby Kelly (21:02) The those who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to pen these words. They also were not afraid to ask God Where were you here? What were you doing here? Or what do you want to do here now that I am bringing it to you and we can look back on the patterns of God in Scripture and see That the Bible is an entire story about God redeeming his people unto himself in more ways than one yes within sin and shame, but also Melanie Wilson (21:10) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Kirby Kelly (21:31) sorrows and suffering, like I mentioned earlier. So looking at the patterns of God, of how he redeems, unconventionally oftentimes, looking at his personhood, and what I mean by that is his nature. God promises, there are so many promises in scripture, but he defines his personhood in scripture as well, as being kind, being compassionate, being fair, being merciful, being a vengeful God who is also just. being holy, being faithful? Do we actually believe and have we become acquainted with who God actually is? Or are we believing a lie as to who he is because of the father wounds we have? Because of how other people in our life, maybe pastors even, have fallen and failed? So why would I ever trust in God? Because he is different. He is different in his personhood in that he is perfect and 100 % those things that he identifies himself to be. And lastly, his presence. Oftentimes in our sorrow, our grief, our situations of pain and hurt and disappointment, it's hard for us to reconcile that God was there and that God is there, that God can be present in those places and that he's even present with us now. Melanie Wilson (22:25) Mm-hmm. Kirby Kelly (22:55) as we're just surrounded by the ashes of what has remained or the broken pieces of what's been scattered and fragmented around us. God, you're really here, then why did these things break? Why did these things get burnt up? And I think asking God those questions of where were you then, but also you are here now. What do you want to do now that you are here now and I am here now with you? I think looking at hope through that lens and having those different threads that we can hold on to, he can begin to weave and bring things together that we thought could never be repaired. And it begins by hoping in God, inviting him in, and I think addressing those four areas where we often might forget that we can place hope in God. Melanie Wilson (23:52) So good. mean, I think we could talk about this for a long time because I mean, my mind is going in all these different directions that I would love to talk about, you know, like the spiritual warfare and the guilt and the shame and, and, you know, trauma and, know, you, you name it. I mean, we could take it in many different directions, but instead of doing that, I'm going to ask you to share what you think. Kirby Kelly (23:55) Yeah Yeah. Melanie Wilson (24:20) a first step is that a listener can take to begin weaving those threads of God's ⁓ presence, because that one's like huge for me, his promises, his personhood, his patterns. ⁓ What would you recommend for someone who's really in a tough place right now? Kirby Kelly (24:38) Yeah. Yeah, I think there's many things that you could do as a first step, but one that I'll just recommend today off the top of my head is to sit down and maybe take time to write out your story, especially if you've been walking with the Lord for a while. Like for the person who's been walking with Jesus for a while, I want to encourage you to do that, to actually enter, like I said, that spiritual discipline of remembrance. I remember I was in... ⁓ counseling, Christian counseling. I feel like I popped out the womb and was immediately sat down in a therapist's office because my life, just from the beginning, as much as there was so much good and privilege that I'm thankful for and I realize and recognize in my life, there was a lot of chaos, like a lot of chaos behind the scenes where I was literally in children's counseling and therapy because it was just that chaotic my life. But one thing a counselor had me do a few years ago, Melanie Wilson (25:17) you Kirby Kelly (25:40) especially as I was processing the grief of my mom. My mom ended up passing away from her addiction in 2023. My dad also died from his addiction back in 2008, I believe. And so during that period of time, I remember my counselor wanted me to go back and just write out my life and my story and to ask God and see where God was in those moments. If I felt like he was there in those moments, but now in hindsight having walked with the Lord for a while what he ended up doing with those moments and it really brought gratitude into my life in places where I only believed grief could exist. I realized that gratitude and grief could coexist in a lot of those spaces. Do I wish I went through any of that? No, and I don't wish that upon my worst enemy knowing Melanie Wilson (26:20) Hmm. Hmm. Kirby Kelly (26:39) what I felt, not even just personally, but even towards God. Like lot of the resentment and bitterness I had toward him. But going back and visiting the parts of my story in my life that I otherwise would have wanted to forget or brush under the rug or not revisit because it was super painful, revisiting those places with the Lord actually became... Melanie Wilson (26:57) Mm. Kirby Kelly (27:06) a catalyst for deeper healing that I didn't know I needed. I didn't know I still had unresolved wounds when it came to my dad or when it came to divorce or when it came to sin struggles I had or when it came to the the weird complex relationship that I had with my mom because of her drinking. mean sitting down and taking time to actually reflect on our own stories honestly but also inviting God in to show us either where he was what he was doing or how he wants to redeem it today. I think that's a really great place to start. It's hard. A lot of us have some skeletons in our closet that we just want to leave there, but bring them out. You know why? Because we got a God who brings dead bones to life, dead bones rattling. Like these dry bones that we thought could never be revived or restored can actually experience resurrection power in the hands of God, to be a place of life that we never imagined. So that's a first step that I would encourage people to do is to go to those hard places, ask the hard questions to God, but have an open mind in the sense of, okay, God, but what do you want to speak into this situation? What do you want to do here? What do you want to do now? What were you doing? What good can come from this place that you didn't necessarily maybe orchestrate, but allowed to? happen in my life through the balance of sovereignty in man's free will and the misuse of it oftentimes. So that's what I would encourage as a first step for listeners today. Melanie Wilson (28:47) Well, you know, as a psychologist, I, ⁓ I could not agree more, with your recommendation. I think that is such a, ⁓ fantastic assignment that you have given listeners. And I sincerely hope, that if you're listening, that you will do that, that you will take the time to do that. ⁓ when you can have a little bit of uninterrupted time, I know that's. It's in short supply when you're a homeschooling mom. But I ⁓ am thankful for ⁓ everything that you have shared. And I am certainly very sorry for the losses and the ⁓ challenges and the hurts that you experienced. ⁓ And I am also ⁓ very hopeful because of how you are using Kirby Kelly (29:17) Yeah. Thank you. Melanie Wilson (29:44) your story, ⁓ not only to recover yourself, but to help other people recover their hope. And I just think that is beautiful. And I'm so glad that you came on the podcast to share that. But before you go, I would love to have you tell us where we can get the fabric of hope and how can listeners connect with you online. And please share your podcast as well. Kirby Kelly (29:51) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, like she said, I have a podcast if you want to listen to it. ⁓ It's called Bot and Beloved. And basically on that podcast, I answer people's questions. I have people submit questions all the time about, know, what does the Bible say about this? Or I'm going through this season, this situation. How do I navigate it ⁓ as a Christian? Whatever your questions are, submit them. I love to just dive into theology, but make it simple, make it approachable. not deviate from scripture, dive in, but in a way where we can approach God fully, whether you're a new believer or whether you've been walking with him for a while, you have your name played on a pew at your church, you know? ⁓ So you could check that out, Bought and Beloved, new episodes every week. ⁓ My book, The Fabric of Hope, Melanie Wilson (30:42) Mm-hmm. Bye. Kirby Kelly (31:00) That is available everywhere books are sold on April 7th. So depending when this episode drops, if it's pre-order season, pre-order it. You can also go to the book website, is FabricofHopeBook.com. That will show you all of the different retailers. mean, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Christian Books, there's a million other ones. But that's where you can also get some of the pre-order bonuses if it's still pre-order season. different worksheets, different teaching video series that are specifically for those who support and show up during pre-order. But if it's after April 7th, don't worry. All the stuff that's in pre-order season, you can read about in the book and you can get it everywhere books are sold. Melanie Wilson (31:45) wonderful. Well, Kirby, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us today. And we wish you all the best with your book launch and the baby. So excited. Okay, okay. Well, thanks again. Kirby Kelly (31:54) Thank you. Yes! Two labors of love in the same month. Pray for me. It's a lot. Melanie Wilson (32:06) I don't know about you, but I needed to hear that today. The reminder that Jesus didn't limit himself from stepping down from heaven to endure suffering alongside us, that he is both the most high king and a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief. That's powerful. If you're in a season where hope feels hard to hold onto, I want you to know that you're not alone. And more importantly, You serve a God who gets it. He understands suffering. He's walked through it himself. Kirby's book, The Fabric of Hope, releases on April 7th. I'll put a link in the show notes at homeschoolsanity.com slash hope, along with information about her podcast and how you can connect with her. And Kirby, we are praying for you and your growing family. What an exciting season you're walking into. If this conversation encouraged you today, would you share it with someone who needs to hear it? Sometimes the best gift we can give someone in a dark season is the reminder that hope is still real and still possible. Have a happy homeschool week. This has been a production of the ultimate homeschool radio network.